Behind the Curve: What Can We Do?

In a past post I was exploring some of the hype behind a movie called Behind the Curve, a film that looks at Flat Earthers and I got to wondering why people believe weird things. This question is on many of our minds and Michael Shermer, of course, offered his book called Why People Believe Weird Things, I book I highly recommend!

My next question after the whys  is the whats.  Specifically what can we do, as people who know or love these people who chose to believe weird things. If anything. Since this is a blog and not a scholarly journal, of course, my writing is just exploratory...


I think that some skeptics often wonder how can I help this person lose their illogic or dogma?  In response to this question, I honestly don't think there are any magic words or magical interventions.

My son was on campus last semester when he came upon a group of Right to Lifers speaking to a gathered group of students. John attempted some debate, with some success. But he came home that day with high energy and very motivated to be able to debate believers in a situation like that. So he spend weeks reading and informing himself and figuring out what he would do or say if given the same opportunity.

Last week, on campus again, that opportunity arose.
He stood for nearly an hour in conversation with the Right to Lifers, addressing their claims, bringing in his research, pointing out many of their erroneous bits of information, and generally holding his own with intellect, wit, and confidence. He even pulled out his phone several times to Google claims that were being made, finding factual evidence in response to those erroneous claims being made. As he left the event, he was stopped by several people who told him "I thought I was a Right to Lifer, but I now see that I have some learning to do." And "Thank you for remaining calm." And "Thank you for having the courage to stand up there, pull out your phone, and look for information right in front of the crowd."

And THAT is what we can do.
We can inform ourselves and offer our sincere, patient, and calm-voiced counterpoints. We can openly research the claims. We can offer our evidence quietly and calmly. And we can know that those around us are watching. We can focus less on the primary debater and more on the circle of listeners.

We may never effect change in the people on the podium, but we can and will effect the people who are listening. If the believers who have the solid floor and are never openly debated, the crowd begins to quietly accept their outrageous, poorly-informed point of view. The majority wins again.

Our voices are essential.
In every way, every day, I will stand up there and be openly skeptical. Because, for some, I am the only face of atheism, skepticism, or freethought that they know. I cannot count the number of times someone has said to me "But you are so nice!" and I will reply, YES, I am, I wonder which other of your assumptions are incorrect..? I also have many examples of believers in positions of power in various churches who have said to me, You make sense and you've got me thinking. That's about all I can ask for.

Further, there is a mindset we can hold. We can be aware that the fringes of belief call to some people because those fringe communities beacon them welcomingly. If I can be welcoming, if I can offer a place where a person can verbalize their beliefs, maybe, just maybe, my welcoming and patience can show them that there are other welcoming ports in the vast exchange of ideas. If our shaming of their beliefs pushes them away, how can we be surprised at their departure from reason?

Holding on to illogical beliefs, weird ideas, philosophies that make little or no sense happens for a reason. These people are getting some emotional need met by their belief. What is it? Maybe explore that a bit.

No shaming.
No angry debating.
No shouting.
No name calling.
No shows of supremacy.

Just a welcome port for an honest exploration of ideas.
Let's explore ideas together. What, then, will we find?

Join me in this new way of peacefully representing reason, logic, skepticism. Because I, too, am tired of the bloviating bullshit and buster of nonbelievers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You Might Also Enjoy:
Being An Atheist Isn't Enough
How to Talk Religion with Children as an Atheist or Skeptic
Indoctrination
There But For the Grace...

For We Have Been You

  Your comments?  

You might also enjoy:
Raising Atheist Children
Atheists Talking to Our Kids about Death and Grief
Sexuality: She Left Beauty Whereever She Went

Ghosts and Bedtime

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Yesterday my post The Tooth Fairy elicited a really great question from one of my favorite visitor/friends, Janeen:

What do you do about things that aren't so friendly? Natalie, who is 10, is afraid of ghosts and is convinced our house is haunted. Sometimes, because of it, she's afraid to sleep at night and wants to sleep in our room. I don't believe in ghosts and neither does her dad but she's pretty convinced they exist and live here.

That's part of the problem, yes, that if you claim supernatural you open yourself up to the scary ideas too... 😟

But fear is a part of being human. Fear can keep us safe. I'm wondering if Natalie's ghost in the house might just be a manifestation of her fear of...something she can't control...just a thought.

I remember my daughter, at a young age, being frightened of scary things in her room. In fact, I remember my step daughter having the same fear...both about ages 7-11. I made up a bottle of water with some of my perfume and, boom, we sprayed Monster Spray around the room, with the comforting and familiar scent of me.

Read these Magical Thinking links or others you might find (though, I would avoid THIS ONE, lol) and you will see that Natalie is at the ripe age for it. The imagination is strong and kids are becoming more aware of their own powerlessness in the wide, wide world.

Four thoughts immediately come to mind.

1. Fight magical thinking with magical interventions. Create something that is safe, a dream catcher type of thing. A picture of you holding her in a frame. Something she can hold in her hand. Art around her bed that feels protective... Seems counter intuitive, probably, but reality and logic aren't at work here.
2. Reality and logic. During the day time, when the fear isn't happening, talk about Natalie's fears, reminding her that monsters and ghosts and all nature of scary ideas are all fictional and imaginary. Include lots of other creatures that she knows are fictional: Zeus, Sauron, Ganesh, whatever she knows for certain to be imaginary. Include ghosts in that list whenever you discuss it. No flying horses, no unicorns, no little green men, no ghosts.
   With time and love she will find her way out of the fear.
3. Ask some questions about the "reality" of the ghosts and try to figure out the thought process and its weaknesses. Where are they now? What are they trying to do? How do they get here? Gently address the impossibility of those things, ending each thought you consider with a hmmmm....let's give it some thought.
   Just a quiet little talk, let the conversation have time to process in her mind. I have faith in Natalie's ability to work through this ghost thing.
4. Replace the ghost idea with something comforting.What would you think about playing comforting music at bedtime? I have a couple of ideas for CDs if you are interested. The idea is that the music be relaxing, soothing, and familiar. Listen to the music during the day too, in the background of your day, during hugs or reading time. Music that can be connected to feelings of safety and tranquility.

...Just a few thoughts off of the top of my head.

Does anyone else have ideas or suggestions for Janeen?

Thanks!

The God Delusion

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So many people that I have talked to about the journey from Christianity to atheism mention Chris Hitchens's book The God Delusion. So many people read the book and got that final nudge from believer to apostate. I almost feel sad for never having read the book.

At the time I finally hit Total Atheist I was reading the book that completely changed my mind from believer to non-believer: The Bible. That book alone is enough for a thinking person to turn their backs on any and all belief in the book and its contents. 

The Bible is full of murder, cold-blooded murder by the so-called Loving Creator. For moral guidance the god of the Bible answers all problems with killing. Too much sin in the world? Kill all living things. Disappointed in his creation? Kill. Too much going on in Sodom? Send in the Divine Napalm. Want the Israelites out of Egypt? Kill all first-born. Israelites worshiping their historical calf god? Kill three thousand. Promised Land already inhabited? Kill man, women, young, old, ox. sheep, and ass with the edge of a sword and burn anything remaining. 

Yeah, I didn't read The God Delusion, didn't need it.  LOL

 Did you? 

 What did you think? 

Free to Be

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When you find yourself moved by a book I think you should pass it on.

A few months ago my husband and I took the kids to an atheist convention called Skepticon. As we were walking in from lunch on the first day, a friend of mine texted me and asked me to look out for a friend of hers at the convention. She told me that Kaleesha was there with her kids and with some other friends.

When my husband and I got into the venue a few moments later I was keeping an eye out for a single women with kids when someone tapped my on my shoulder. By the end of the night our kids were best friends and Kaleesha, Kaleesha's friend (who I will call Betty because she is not out and can not be out as an atheist), and I had embarked on a new and inspiring friendship. And BONUS, they all homeschool.

And it turns out Kaleesha later told me that she has been reading my blog for quite some time...and she totally knew who we were when she saw us at Skepticon, probably thanks to John John's blue hair.
Yes, Kaleesha was my first groupie.   -------------------------->

Kaleesha is the author is a couple of books; I want to tell you about her book Free to Be. Both Kaleesha and Betty are survivors, apostates from a couple of very evangelical quiverful extremist churches. Kaleesha, in her inimitable way, has chronicled her very difficult and extremely necessary and inevitable deconverstion in this book Free to Be. The thing that makes this book different from other deconversion books is Kaleesha's personality...it comes out on every single page. By the time I got a couple of pages in I started sending Kaleesha love notes. (grin) She is so likable and honest and interesting and intelligent. 

With our kids becoming BFFs it wasn't long before we started spending extended periods of time together and I totally fell for her kids too. And for Betty's kids.

Faces of BFFs have been obscured because Betty and her kids have to stay
 in the atheist closet
because of the penitentiary of their past believing community.

All of our kids have truly become so meaningful to one another.

It is my honor to recommend Kaleesha's book Free to Be. And, please, if you read it, leave a comment here and on Amazon!

Dennis's Conversation: A Non-Deconversion

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I suspect most open atheists experience that phenomenon where we are the Atheist Friend for some believing people. I'm quite open and approachable (I guess) because I believe I represent atheism to many people both online and in real life. 

One guy who lived in my old neighborhood when I was a kid seems to have cozied up to me on Facebook as his favorite atheist. I will call him Dennis. Although Dennis was a part of the beautiful freedom when I recently unfriended about a hundred people from my friend list, we seem to be able to still communicate by FB messages. I mention this because I got an interesting question from him the other day in a FB message.

When you at one time you read your Bible did you ever look at God has the Redeemer ? God can make a bad situation good God doesn't do it by doing miracles in the Old Testament He does it by entering into a covenant relationship. This is just a thought they I had. The covenant start with Gen. Chapter 12

My conversation in FB messages with Dennis has been going on for a couple of years. Part of the time he's totally over religion and the mind control while the other part of the time he's trying to explain his continued belief. I know he struggles with breaking out of the brainwashing and with trying so hard to find ways to maintain that belief. It's all complicated by the fact that he makes his living as a minister.

When he is out of belief he is incredibly angry at the church, at the teachings as brainwashing, at all authority within the church for spreading lies, at the emptiness of it all, and at the nothingness of prayer. When he is in belief he genuinely accepts the words in that religious text that so many believers venerate.

I know you can forgive Dennis's spelling and other writing errors for his sincerity:

God wants a relationship . Their's evil in the world but on the side God is the way out because God is the provides the way out by redeeming us

Obviously, the other day was one of those days when poor Dennis was trying to reconcile some pretty bad stuff going on in his life with the supposed fact that God is good and will make life better for his believers. Both Dennis and his wife have some quite awful chronic pain and physical handicaps and, in spite of major dollars spent they are both still in a great deal of pain.

His question for me, about whether or not I have a relationship with god, is his usual way of trying to figure out why he believes what he does by asking me to figure it out, tease it out, explain how it makes no sense to me. Sometimes, after I've given him my thoughts on the subject that he presents, he will reveal his own doubts and other times he will post continuing rhetoric usually spoken by believers in conversations such as this.

This time I replied:

Yeah, [Dennis], but you seem to have forgotten something extremely vital to this discussion. I don't believe in ANY gods, including yours. So having "a relationship" with a fictional character doesn't make any sense. 

Furthermore, I don't believe that the way to "Good' in the world will come from having a supernatural connection to something.

Good will only come from choices that HUMANS make to improve our world.

His congenial reply:

Very true it was just a thought. [My wife] is in remission from the pain . So each pain free day is a blessing from God. The seizures have all calmed down. I deeply believe it's all by the Grace of God

I referred Dennis to The Clergy Project, a confidential online support community for current and past clergy who no longer hold any supernatural belief, a couple of years ago and he thanked me profusely. Now he's back to belief. 

For some people, the road to deconversion is a supremely long one. Others never find their way entirely down it. But I understand the pain and struggle...which is why I'll always remain open and welcoming to anyone who needs to have that one single Atheist Friend.

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You might also enjoy these posts:
An Unexpected Benefit of Deconversion
It Takes More Faith to be an Atheist
You Deny God Because You Want to Sin

Atheism 101: Debate

 

The Stages of Losing Your Religion

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I wrote this post about seven years ago 

and never actually posted it. 

My writing style is different 

and my references are old...lol...

but I put alot of work into it back then 

and I think it's worth posting; 

so here it is:

Ok, first of all I just want to preface this by saying that these are my personal observations. I am not making any claim towards what the "right" way to deconvert is nor am I laying exclusive claim to the means of deconversion. Not everyone goes through every phase and not every phase is significant to all deconverts. I am just writing what I observe, if you think I'm full of shit, feel free to say so. I've used some quotes from deconversion stories posted on some Facebook boards.

Phases of Deconversion:

Phase 0 - The pre-deconversion

ATHEST

This step really isn't a step at all. This is just the generalized time before deconversion. In this phase I was 100% committed to my belief, I called myself a christian, I thought of myself as a christian, I knew all the ways to answer all the questions about my faith and the idea of not being a christian had yet to enter my mind. This phase could be brief or quite lengthy, but it is characterized by the complete lack of questioning about your faith. You may be confronted about your faith by others, and you respond with all the "right" answers, but you yourself have yet to put your belief under the microscope. In fact, I remember someone asking me to explain the fossils and I said that God placed them there to test our faith! Some can go their whole lives without ever leaving this state, but we are talking about deconversion here, so on to phase 1.

Phase 1 - Curiosity Killed the Cat

This is what I would consider to be the real first step toward deconversion: The point at which you might first examine your own faith. Now, this can come about in many ways. For some questioners, their zeal for discovering more about their religion leads them to examine themselves, ironically enough this quest for a greater faith leads them towards a lesser (or non-existent) one. For others, this questioning process is brought about by the inquiries of others. One particularly poignant question becomes the seed from which reason sprouts. Others still may find that in their increased knowledge of the natural world, they find things in conflict or even contradiction to their previously held beliefs. Sadly, many... far too many come to this step through tragedy or hardship, when the question isn't about religion per se, but about the nature of god itself. "How could god let this happen?" or "Why would he let this happen to us" or such questions simply cannot be answered to any satisfaction.

There are many other ways this questioning process can be kicked off, but the point is that at some point the walls around your faith that protected it from introspection begin to yield. I have a suspicion that most believers encounter this phase of deconversion at least once in their life of faith, though most find cause to ignore or suppress it. The bible itself warns against such questioning. The entire apologetics industry is designed to push phase 1ers back to phase 0, as demonstrated by the fact that anyone well into their deconversion (not to mention anyone of other faiths or non-faiths) find apologetic arguments laughable or downright insulting.

As Alucard wrote on FB, on Feb 3 2008, 02:37 AM:

Fast forward nearly 10 years and after countless debates on the subjects of the bible and creation science i noticed myself doing something ive never done before, i started becoming troubled by the atrocities in the bible, in particular the OT.

one day while reading the old testament i came to a passage where god commanded saul to kill everyone in a town, including women and children. this deeply disturbed me i thought to myself how could a loving god order the murder of those who could not defend themselves, not just the women but also that of innocent children.

thespankguy, on Feb 3 2008, 11:27 PM, wrote:

After that, I was sitting in my second astronomy class where I learned so much that was almost contradictory to what I had learned growing up. Over the course of the rest of the class, I added all the new knowledge on the size of the universe and how we are all "star dust" to things I learned in the previous classes. This began rational thinking in my life.

Phase 2 - The Quest for Answers

Ok, so now you've got a mind full of questions... or maybe just one or two particularly persistent ones. Who has the answers? For most early questioners, the first place we look is also the least helpful, religion. We scour the bible, meet with our pastor, call up our strong christian brothers and sisters. We peruse christian message boards and we read christian literature. So careful are we to avoid any secular literature for fear that it may seek to lead us away from our faith. The answer-seekers are convinced that they are still trying to save their faith, to fortify it with godly answers. This phase is characterized by one emotion: Fear.

It is a particular brand of fear, I can liken it most to the feeling of being lost. Like you were hiking in the woods and lose your bearings, all of the sudden you are struck by this sense of "I don't know where I am." Luckily for you, you are surrounded by others and can simply ask for directions. Unfortunately the answers you get are thoroughly unsatisfying. In fact, sometimes your questions aren't answered at all, but rather turned around onto you as some sort of flaw in your faith. You are told to consult the tour guide, but he just tells you to stay with the flock, and go read your guidebook. You check your guidebook but it barely seems to make sense anymore; "What the hell are these guys talking about palm trees for? I'm in the Rocky Mountains!"

In your search to find slightly more satisfying answers, you find a secular source. It may be by accident, a non-religious friend or relative, or it may be on purpose under the guise of curiosity, such as stumbling onto exchristians.net, but nonetheless you find someone, somewhere, who will actually answer your questions. However, far from sealing this one tiny leak in your otherwise unsinkable faith-tanic, you are spurred on to new questions, until you inevitably find yourself at "the" question, and the answer isn't 42.

HereticZero, on Dec 2 2007, 08:46 AM, wrote:

When I expressed my concerns to people in my ministry I was told I needed to go to school and learn more about my faith so I would better understand our theology and doctrine.

.:webmaster:., on Feb 1 2008, 05:07 AM, wrote:

 A funny thing happened on my way to my liberal arts degree. I was required to take a Humanities course called Western Civilization. In it I had to read the work of several eighteenth century philosophers from the Age of Reason. It was a flunk-out course and most students hated it, but I loved it. The scales fell from my eyes. At the end of the two-semester course (sophomore year), I was a full blown atheist. A little education is a dangerous thing.

Phase 3 - Do I Believe?

Most people, I find, don't actually ask this question until their deconversion is at such a point that the answer is "No". We skirt around the question, avoiding it for fear of the consequences. This can be a very desperate time for some, especially if your whole life is built on a christian foundation. It isn't just a question of changing perspective, but of giving up everything you've ever known. Desperately, you seek the counsel of your friends and mentors, but to your surprise your hints at a failing faith are met with hostility, condemnation, and rebuke. I suspect that this is because your open questioning of faith sheds light on their private questioning of faith and their aggression is really a defensive maneuver. Either way, this can be a very lonely time, one at which you fell isolated from your normal support group, if not physically isolated, then emotionally isolated. Some are lucky to find others of fading faith for support, others unfortunately face this transition alone.

In some ways, and for some people however, this can be a very liberating process. If you find yourself in a religiously neutral environment, the pursuit of knowledge of the world and yourself can be exciting, filled with new discoveries every day. You can throw off the shackles that bound you to your faith and are free to explore all sorts of new things you may have never heard of before.

Nevertheless, at some point the question is asked, by yourself or by someone else; "Do you believe?" and you answer, "No."

upstarter, on Nov 28 2007, 12:48 PM, wrote:

 But I kept asking questions. Finally one day I asked our pastor (a second evangelical pastor who came after Al) about "the unforgivable sin". I had read this in my bible, but I didn't really understand what it meant. He told me that the unforgiveable sin was turning my back on Jesus. Well, I was sure I'd done that. Was he sure that was unforgiveable? Was there really something that I could do and I wouldn't be forgiven? That scared me.

Victor, on Sep 10 2007, 12:30 AM, wrote:

 After that I became much less religious, almost to the point of agnosticism. I wavered from rejecting God to running back to theism. My church friends were no help, the hypocrites. Praising God in one breath and backstabbing and uttering insults the next. The girls, even worse. They were the more zealous to worship Father God, and yet that didn't stop them from sleeping around or being catty bitches to one another. I began to see just how corrupt the church's followers were. The few good men were outnumbered by dozens of hypocrites, liars, and charlatans. I was disgusted. I stopped going to youth group meetings because of that. Another symptom of my disillusionment.

cm_christ, on Jan 31 2008, 09:39 AM, wrote:

a switch went off in my head,for the first time in my life someone said it was ok not to believe in god, in an unconscious way i had searching for someone to tell me that it was ok, taht someone else doubts in their faith. the other incident that finally seperated me was one day my friend had made me a cannibal corpse (death metal) t-shirt with sharpie that had a pentagram on the back a typlical staple of death metal imagry, a older kid at the school cornered me and told me did i know i was going to hell for wearing that?? i told him casually yes not really caring or beliveing him, and for the first time i was able to look from the outside in at how ridiculous that sound, a 5-pointed star would curse me to hell??

Phase 4 - Anger

"Congratulations! You are now a non-believer. Here is your hat and t-shirt. We're having a bake-sale this Saturday at the park and I'll go ahead and sign you up for our newsletter..." 
Well, not exactly. 

When you converted, there was all sorts of pomp and circumstance. People were showering you with attention, everyone was your friend and you were instantly tied into a new social group. Your moment of deconversion, the moment you first answer that question "No", by contrast is wholly unsatisfying. The sky doesn't part, lightning doesn't strike your house, demons don't stab you in the ass with pitchforks... In a way you almost wish you did get stabbed in the ass, at least there would be something that happened to signify your deconversion, some sort of moment in time that you could point to as the beginning of a new life. We could all sit around and talk about our deconversion moment: I'd ask, "So when did you get stabbed in the ass with a pitchfork?" and you'd reply, "Oh, it was back in aught-six, I was visiting my parents for christmas. Do you want to see the scar?" at which point I'd reply, "No thanks... You should really pull up your pants now, this is awkward."

Unfortunately for all of us, there is no signifying moment of deconversion. We still live the same life we did, but now we are constantly bombarded with reminders of our old faith. We can feel very rejected, very hurt, insulted, or degraded. You end up feeling embarrassed by your former belief, and you feel so dumb for falling victim to it for so long. You feel betrayed by the people you trusted so much to tell you the truth of the world. Above all things, you begin to feel angry.

And you should feel angry! You were lied to, you were kept in fear. You expected love from these people but they were just using you. When you needed support while giving up your faith, they told you it was your fault! How dare they! These people called themselves your friends but once you had a little ideological difference they abandoned you, they judged you, they completely ignored you. Oh the hypocrisy! They stole your life from you, you'll never get those years back. UGH, when I think of all the embarrassing things I've said to non-religious co-workers and friends. How could I have been such a fool!

For many, many of us, the anger phase lasts a long time. It manifests itself in all sorts of ways, sometimes overtly, sometimes passively. Don't get me wrong, it's good to feel anger, it is good to get these feelings out, but at some point the anger must give way. The anger feels so good, it is so emotionally satisfying that we sometimes want to hang onto it too long, but we must give it up to move on to phase 5.

FedUp, on Jan 2 2008, 08:08 PM, said:

I just am facing the fact that I am still really freekin angry at these suckers and it's not only based upon this woman's lying ass horseshit. It's years of wasted time dealing with control freaks who ain't no better than me but on the flip side are some of the most deceitful lying little pustules I have ever dealt with, and BEEN HARMED BY, in my entire life. And most of them do it with such relish, because of course, they're 'saved' and I ain't so they can feel free to do as they please and harm who they want and all is 'forgiven'. Fuck them. I have tried to bury how I really feel about it all for too long, and repressing it has made me sick, and I mean even feeling physically sick, so pardon me if anyone feels like I've tipped over some line somewhere here.

Kriosa Lysia, on Dec 20 2007, 09:36 PM, said:

 When I finally left Christianity after many years, I became very, very angry over the manipulation, the fear-based theologies of hell and demons, the suppression of questioning, the guilt, the shame, etc. At the same time I was also still convinced that I was a sinful, horrible, no-good person and the guilt was crushing.

Phase 5 - Acceptance

The ultimate tragedy of being a deconvert is the fact that even though we stop believing, some people won't let it go. Imagine your old faith like a car. For a while you loved it, you took care of it and drove it all the time but one day it breaks down. You get out and try to fix it, but you can't. You ask a mechanic but he just asks for 10% of your income and tells you to fix it yourself. You consult the user manual but it was written for a pedestrian. In desperation, you start kicking the car, swearing at it, throwing rocks at it. You hate it, and somehow punishing it for leaving you stranded makes you feel some amount of relief. You push it home, kicking it and swearing at it the whole way. You get up in the middle of the night just to take a leak in the gas tank. Then you start acting weird.

You start pushing the car wherever you go, breaking out the windows and scratching the paint. You get a new car and tow the old one behind it just so it's available for abuse whenever you need. You may even attack other peoples cars of the same make and model; "Your car's garbage! Throw it away, you can't depend on it!" Admit it, you actually enjoy being mad at your car.

For a time that anger is very therapeutic, it helps you cope with the loss of a major component of your life. Now however, your life is just as consumed with this car as it was when it worked, and you don't even get to drive it anymore! To truly be past it, you need to go ahead and drop it off at the dump. You don't need to rush yourself, have fun tearing the hoop-de hunk-o-junk up, but wouldn't it be nice to live a life that didn't revolve around the old christ-moble anymore?

Stage 6 Anyone? - HAPPINESS

And now it's just easy because life finally makes sense.
Breath.

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You might also enjoy:
The Greatest Gift
An Unexpected Benefit of Deconversion
Bart Ehrman
Science is Your God

I Meme Well

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Some nights I just get my mind all in an uproar and I get a veritable bee in my bonnet and make sets of memes for Pinterest. Here's what I made tonight.  :)

The Complexity of Adulthood

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When I was a believer I remember using all sorts of mental gymnastics to maintain my preposterous belief system. This one time, waaaay back in the day when I was still a believer, I was dating an atheist, a really terrific guy. One day when he and I were on a river canoeing, this boyfriend asked me what explanation I had for fossils in the rock strata. I brilliantly told him that I thought that God put them there to confuse us.

LOL  That guy dropped me like a hot potato!  Smart guy!!!


Do you have any compassion for those people who are believers and who play these mental games with themselves?  
REALLY? I really want to know what you think.

Because I do.
I can forgive them for their nonsense. I hate having the bullshit being made a part of this country in the political system. THAT. But I understand the believers, you know? I want to have compassion. I want to understand their points of view, even though I consider the beliefs to be absurd and complete deception. I want to live in a world where people are not held hostage by their beliefs, where people are not coercive with their beliefs.

Beloved friends and family who are believers have such fear that they express in their weird and often brutal ways... The anger. The prejudices. The nonsense. I wish they were easier to be with. I wish they made it easier to get along.

It was easier back when I first became an atheist and I was just angry. I could just make fun of the belief. I could simply express complete incredulity over the certainty, the insults, and the influence of the believers. It's more complicated now...


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You might like these posts:
Be That Person
Mind the Gap
Struggling With a Label
Do What Needs Doing

RELAX...it's Just God!

atheist parenting, Wendy Thomas Russell, Relax...it's just god atheist parent atheist parent atheist parent

Being a freethinking parent even ten years ago was such a different proposition. Books, public role models, and an openly secular vibe did not exist...anywhere! Those days were so different; what a difference a decade makes. We parents who worked so hard to find our way out way out of religion's grasp back in those days had very little published support. So atheist parent and blogger Wendy Russell Thomas did what so many of us wish we had done: she wrote the book that she would like to have read.

Wendy is the author of an eponymously named blog that I have read for several years now called Wendy Thomas Russell, Relax...It's Just God. Her comforting and informing voice hasn't been on her blog lately though because she has embarked on an exciting new adventure as an author of a book for first gen atheist parents, a book called Relax...it's Just God: How and Why to Talk to Your Kids about Religion When You're Not Religious.

Since Wendy and I are driving similar roads, writing and creating projects for secular parenting, it has been my pleasure to have some time in her busy life for a lovely chat about what is going on with her and what is meaningful for her. I'll pass that conversation on to you soon.

I'm reading RELAX... now and I
HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT! 

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Other posts you might enjoy:
It Takes More Faith to be an Atheist

On Being Religion-Free

I Took John to Church

One of my Worst Parenting Days: Making Mountains

Raising Atheist Children

ACK! Parenting Wars

Dealing With the Confrontational Family Member

 Atheists Dealing with Religious Family and friends, secular parenting

Atheists Dealing with Religious Family 

(or Religious Friends)

Before going in to my brilliant answer to this problem, I have one question for you:

Can you appreciate where they are coming from?   

We know that the churches talk about atheists as though we are devil worshipers and all manner of evil things. The pulpit scares churchgoers. These beloved family members and dear friends of ours live with a very deeply-rooted fear of sin and evil and demons and all manner of dark things that humans have created...  Generally, these people do not understand that atheists neither believe in such things, nor do we have an agenda in alignment with any such invented force as dark side; but that is what they are taught about atheism.  
Their fear is genuine and bone deep. 

Believers can have some very real and profound emotional trauma when they think about their loved ones spending eternity in an everlasting punishment of hell. I have the utmost compassion for them.

I’m a non-snark kind of person and I sincerely discourage attacking the believer for their belief even if they are attacking you for your atheism. Their deep-seated fear may be unmovable. It’s possible that they will never accept your atheism. Remember, their church and their friends are advising them about their responsibilities to confront you about your atheism...what to say, what to do, and how to address you. They are very confused and they may be getting some terrible advice about how to handle it.

If only the advice was Live and let live we could all simply move forward and love one another, but it is unlikely that our beloved family members are hearing this healing and peaceful tenet from their spiritual support staff; it is more likely that they are hearing advice in how to entrap you, lure you, shame you, put fear in to you, or some other unscrupulous means of ensnaring new believers.

Make no mistake, they are scared to death.

Sadly, churches are so very good at creating fear rather than at alleviating it. But I do have a few ideas that I hope may help in keeping the conflict to a minimum. Keep in mind that everyone is different, every situation is unique, and we can’t really control anyone except for ourselves. Furthermore, remember that recovery from shock, disappointment, and pain requires time to heal the grief.
 
I offer these tips. 

Beforehand: Plan the conversation. Schedule the time so that everyone is rested, prepared, and has adequate time to discuss. Remember, you may be changing your relationship with beloved family members during this conversation and they may need time to regroup. 

1. Keep calm.  When talking with these beloved people (now possibly appearing as out-of-control angry people) we must acknowledge that the news is new and alarming to them. Most clergy people and public messages paint atheists as actual demon-worshipers. Let these people have the time to vent their fears and anger. Fight all urge to respond with anger.

 This does NOT mean that you stay in the room
 if any person becomes abusive. 

2. Avoid religion-bashing. Believers take their beliefs very personally and a person being attacked will always respond in attack mode. Besides, we are big enough to accept that their beliefs are important to them and we can respect that. We also can recognize that they are the fearful ones here, not us.
Be sympathetic to their fears and concerns. 

3. Be factual about where you stand. Present your reasons if you must, keeping in mind that no explanation will be enough. This is not the time to disparage their beliefs but to explain where you are and how you got there. 

4. I strongly discourage debating believers. Debating and arguing has never changed a person’s point of view when they are in crisis and self-protection mode. Assume that the process will take time. It is not always possible to fully avoid debating. Maybe leave them with a great website or a letter to read and explore, then make plans to talk about it again at a later time. 

5. Know that they are “taking you to church", Women’s group, friends, clergy, or other members of their church for advice. Recognize that their words may not be their own. These so-called supportive friends are whipping up the fervor to a fevered pitch and your beloved friends and family are not getting any honest messages of love, healing, or acceptance. They may feel intense pressure to put forth their church's byline.

In other words, you are, first, facing the religious community by-line more than the real issues of your loves ones.

6. Reassure the people that you love, family and friends, that your atheism does not change how you feel about them, nor does it change the person that you are. Listen again and again to their fears. Model calmness and courtesy.
Respect their need for time to grieve. 

7. Assure them that you have no desire to confront their beliefs, recruit them in any way, become a different person than they know you to be (except for being and feeling more honest), or have anything secret or unknowable about your life. Your atheism is simple and open and completely knowable. You are very comfortable answering any and all questions that they may have.
They truly don't know what you mean by atheist. 

8. Identify areas of agreement. We all love each other and we love the kids. We are all doing what we sincerely believe to be the right thing. We are talking over this issue because we are honest and because we respect one another. We want to remain a close, loving family.

9. Make it clear and firm, whenever the need arises that you expect them to respect your parenting toward the kids and that there is to be no secrecy about talking about religion with the kids. Our parents had us to parent and we have our children. It is truly within our rights as the parent to protect our children from secrecy and other situations that put our children in uncomfortable situations. I don't know a single child who is at ease keeping secrets from their parents.

10. And finally, Love them through it. Even though the disagreement remains between you, do all you can to keep the relationship intact, healthy, and affectionate. Give them time to grieve the idea that you will share their faith with them for their mythical eternity. You may have to ignore some of the conflict and focus on the good. Life is about connection after all. 

Bonus 11.  Be the one to create the dialogue and keep that dialogue open, honest, and peaceful to the best of your ability. And isn't it nice that we, as atheists, can decide our response to things rather than look to some false authority figure instead?

Bottom Line

You can't change anybody else except for yourself. History proves that some religious thought is incredibly resistant to logic, reason, compromise, openness, acceptance, or secular thought. As always in this freethought journey, know that the only thing you can control for certain is your own behavior in a situation.

Some people may be entirely unable to square things with you.
Some churches and belief systems are very divisive and, sadly, encourage people to split with loved ones over issues such as this one. It is sad for our beloveds...

My wish for you people who try to understand:

If you have some time you can check out the show this week
on the SecularTV channel on Youtube.
Click here for the 50 minute show.
And PLEASE ignore the weird faces I make when I talk.
The Secular Parents

  Have you dealt with this????
  Do you have any words of wisdom?  

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You might also like these posts:
Raising Atheist Children

It's Going to be Worth It

How an Atheist Discusses Religion with her Children

That Hideous Dance Between Faith and Critical Thinking